DRM / Activation

sng wrote:Factiod,

So how would you propose that they solve this? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A one time key check is about as non-intrusive as it gets in terms of reasonable protection schemes. If people weren't assholes then there wouldn't need to be anything. But they are and this isn't bad at all. Or would you rather revert to distribution on shiny round things? My best friend, and serious PA fangirl, in Singapore who was playing the game at the same time and for the same price as I was yesterday would disagree with that, I think. Sure it's an imperfect scheme. But it's an imperfect world. And this isn't a bad trade off at all. Life simply ain't black and white.

If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, personally I would go with "don't".

My point is that it's NOT a one time check. It's a check for every time I install the game on a new system. Piracy is a reality and no amount of DRM will ever stop it or even slow it down.

I don't have a problem with ONE TIME activation, but that's not what we're talking about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 10:07:59

darthkiwi wrote:I didn't mind the one-time internet check since it was distributed on the internet anyway so it made perfect sense. My only concern is, as factoid said, that if I want to play it when your servers are dead and gone then I'm stuck. (Yes, I tend to think long-term.) But you guys seem pretty reasonable so I'm sure you'll overcome that problem when/if it arrives.

This is seriously like complaining about the cost of light bulbs because when the sun goes out you're going to need light. When and if this company fades into memory during your lifetime, this game (assuming you even still have the install files) will likely be available for free on whatever passes for the future's version of rapidshare or usenet and it won't matter.

Once an install is fine. People have internetz these dayz, ya know?

factoid wrote:

sng wrote:Factiod,

So how would you propose that they solve this? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A one time key check is about as non-intrusive as it gets in terms of reasonable protection schemes. If people weren't assholes then there wouldn't need to be anything. But they are and this isn't bad at all. Or would you rather revert to distribution on shiny round things? My best friend, and serious PA fangirl, in Singapore who was playing the game at the same time and for the same price as I was yesterday would disagree with that, I think. Sure it's an imperfect scheme. But it's an imperfect world. And this isn't a bad trade off at all. Life simply ain't black and white.

If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, personally I would go with "don't".

My point is that it's NOT a one time check. It's a check for every time I install the game on a new system. Piracy is a reality and no amount of DRM will ever stop it or even slow it down.

I don't have a problem with ONE TIME activation, but that's not what we're talking about.

Not an option. To release it unprotected would violate all sorts of due diligence rules and make Hothead's money people stop giving them cash to do awesome work with. And then we all lose. The correct solution is to stop channeling nutcases like Doctorow and Stallman over a game produced by awesome people. Aside from any technical limits they have to have something in place. They've already told you that their policy is to "do the right thing" if and when it comes up. You're dealing with a small company selected by very groovy people to help produce their product. Are you really worried about this or are you just making some halfwitted internet political stand here? Freetards suck and you're proving why. Badgering these folks over this issue? Yeah, you've lost sight of what's important and have no sense of perspective.

To Hothead games,

Due to sections 2 and 6 of the EULA, I will not be purchasing Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness. Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form. Furthermore, any such change in the product would require a change in the EULA to confer both rights of ownership and transfer.

I do not expect you to care, nor do I expect this will change anything. But, I do care and this does change my buying habits.

Cheers,
-Brian K. Hlady

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 12:17:30

The due diligence thing is bs; just look at companies like StarDock who release their stuff without any copy protection whatsoever. There's no law, at least not in the United States, that requires this.

I do find this level of DRM surprising, considering how much Penny Arcade has lambasted it in the past. To wit:

It's the sort of thing that makes a person invest their leisure time with other machines, or - and this is awesome - pirate games they have themselves purchased by circumventing the check with a cracked exe. This is something I do almost one hundred percent of the time, because I can't be sure I'm receiving the full value of my hardware if I don't.

--Tycho

This is exactly what I'll be doing.

I'm sorry I rushed to purchase the game, as I missed this tidbit, I now realize my trust in P-A was misplaced. Thankfully, this is an episoding adventure, and I can choose to not support P-A, hothead, and greenhouse in any future ventures of any kind.

Requiring auth servers to be up in 10 years to reinstall the game is unacceptable. I still play my old DOS games, TYVM.

Thanks for taking a dump on your customers.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 12:09:44

Frankly I'm amazed at the amount of vitriol a simple license key has generated.

I can't speak for HotHead, but to those who refuse to buy the game on principal, more power to you. It's just a game. Those of us who did buy it will continue to enjoy it regardless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 12:14:41

Not an option. To release it unprotected would violate all sorts of due diligence rules and make Hothead's money people stop giving them cash to do awesome work with. And then we all lose. The correct solution is to stop channeling nutcases like Doctorow and Stallman over a game produced by awesome people. Aside from any technical limits they have to have something in place. They've already told you that their policy is to "do the right thing" if and when it comes up. You're dealing with a small company selected by very groovy people to help produce their product. Are you really worried about this or are you just making some halfwitted internet political stand here? Freetards suck and you're proving why. Badgering these folks over this issue? Yeah, you've lost sight of what's important and have no sense of perspective.

I can't say I know much about canadian laws, but in the US there are no such "due diligence" requirements that go so far as to say "video games distributed digitally must have activation mechanisms that require internet access." I'm willing to bet money that there's no such law in BC / Canada either.

Now if Hothead's financiers (do they even have any? I thought this was self-funded) required it that's different, but no such reason as "due diligence" requires Hothead to use a system like this. Software was sold via digital download for a LOT of years before RSPD came out...and years before online key activation became quite so widespread.

Serdic wrote: Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form.

Well said. Also, I disagree with the concept of rent, and will not be moving out of my Mom's basement until such time as landlords stop charging it. Seriously, is the place for this discussion? We're all gamers, we all know the pros and cons of this issue, and I'm sure we've all argued it before, in other forums.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 12:15:19

You'll notice I didn't say laws. By rules I meant "generally accepted requirements among money people". And there ain't a one of them that's going to sign off on what you're proposing. It's a tradeoff that, in the modern world, is needed to get financing for projects to have digital downloads. Maybe not even formal rules but the fact remains that the money people are going to insist on something that takes at least a little effort to crack.

Weis,

Freetard grandstanding knows no bounds.

The thing is that this system will take 0 more effort to crack than a non-online authenticating system.

The cracker will just dig into the EXE, find the part where it tries to go online to authenticate and then disable/bypass/fool it via the usual methods.

If you want to see a company that does no DRM on video games take a look at Stardock. It works fine for them. DRM is a bad business decision in my opinion. You're spending time and money implementing copy protection that will be broken no matter what you do. In addition you'll have people who flat-out refuse to buy the game because of the DRM, so rather than gaining sales, you're losing them. That's the argument I think the money people never hear.

I've already gone through this with BioShock. If I get to the point where I hit a roadblock because of the DRM, then I will go ahead and pirate it. Until then, I'll leave the disc in the drive, since none of my other games require me to use a disc. Thank you Steam.

If I have this problem with RSPD, then I'll pirate it, but I'm still going to buy it first.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/22/2008 12:34:42

sng wrote:Not an option. To release it unprotected would violate all sorts of due diligence rules and make Hothead's money people stop giving them cash to do awesome work with. And then we all lose. The correct solution is to stop channeling nutcases like Doctorow and Stallman over a game produced by awesome people. Aside from any technical limits they have to have something in place.

Oh... so I guess you never hear of Sin of a Solar empire or even Stardock games for that matter, last time I checked they were also doing an "awesome" job and yet they use a single one time DRM free activation (once you download and activate the game you can play it on any computer without ever needing to reactivate it again), and guess what... it sells very well. So maybe you should send them an e-mail telling them how wrong they are and how they violate all sorts of due diligence rules, I am sure they would be happy to know about it.

But seriously if HotHead really insist on using DRM they should at least make them "temporary" either by doing what Telltales does for Sam & Max and release a DRM-free CD version (free for those who bought the digital download version) or, after 3-6 month, release a patch that removes completely the DRM. I know that if they had announced something like that I would have bought the game...

Serdic wrote:To Hothead games,

Due to sections 2 and 6 of the EULA, I will not be purchasing Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness. Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form. Furthermore, any such change in the product would require a change in the EULA to confer both rights of ownership and transfer.

I do not expect you to care, nor do I expect this will change anything. But, I do care and this does change my buying habits.

Cheers,
-Brian K. Hlady

You'll be missed.

Gersen wrote:But seriously if HotHead really insist on using DRM they should at least make them "temporary" either by doing what Telltales does for Sam & Max and release a DRM-free CD version (free for those who bought the digital download version) or, after 3-6 month, release a patch that removes completely the DRM. I know that if they had announced something like that I would have bought the game...

Yeah...PA announced quite awhile back that they were going to release a CD version of the game about 6 months after the digital release. Remember...they had a tiff with Gamestop about it, because Gamestop said they would only carry the game if PA/Hothead did not do a digital release first.

Count it.