DRM / Activation

Hey guys, please take it down a notch. We'd really like to see a respectful community here. DRM is one of those issues that people are passionate about, and we don't need to make it a personal one.

Thanks!

The sad thing is, this game is (of course) already pirated and anyone can find it by typing "slick rain" and the magical T world into Google (feel lucky and you'll end up on a certain swedish site). So there's no real reason for DRM, unless you want to argue the intended audience for this game doesn't know what a "torrent" is.

Meanwhile people in the support section are having problem because some not too bright programmer decided it'd be nice to take your money on port 80 (http) and 443 (https) (which are open on practically every network), but to activate your game on port 328%333pound or something equally silly.

Of course I did buy the game. I didn't have any problems activating it, but can think of at least 2 situations where it would not have worked for me (LAN at work and if it'd be using the cellular network while traveling). That would definatly have translated into future lost sales from me.

My advice, release a patch in the near future that removes this authentication in favor of a simple client side CD key check. Any benefit you had from the system was mostly in the first 24/48hours anyway, and if you act quick enough you can limit the fallout of screwing over your users... or, for what it's worth, ending the rather uncomfortable situation of the two people behind this game comparing this kind of system with anal visitations by robots and then adopting it a few days later.

Also, about the guy who couln't be bothered to write an online authentication service that uses a normal HTTP(S) request? Slap him with a large trout.

factoid wrote:I have to keep beating this drum, because I think it's important.

How is this DRM system any different or better than what has been so hated about Mass Effect / Spore / Bioshock?

EA relented on the 10-day re-checking of the activation, but they still limit the number of installations, which is exactly what you guys are doing. You're treating paying customers like pirates and it's unfair. The really aggravating part is that the pirates will NEVER have to endure this. They'll crack your EXE by next week, and bypass the authentication process entirely. 5 years from now the pirates will be able to play the game without hassle, but I'll have to wait for support just so that I can install the game that I bought.

I have a solution... If you hate the DRM so much that it kills the experience for you.

1: Buy the game.
2: DL the pirated version.

Pa / Hothead get paid.

You get a DRM free game.

Everybody wins!

defraggle wrote:
I have a solution... If you hate the DRM so much that it kills the experience for you.
1: Buy the game.
2: DL the pirated version.

I've already done the first thing, and am sortof planning on the second. So it's not a bad idea, but it doesn't solve the problem that (a) it's actually illegal and (b) we still paid for the DRM. The whole idea is that we'd like to buy a game without DRM and not be considered criminals.

I'd like to pipe in and clarify a few things. I know some people have really strong views on this topic.

1. The limit on the number of installs is solely intended to prevent casual copying of the game and sharing of license codes. If you have more than three machines that you want to play the game on, send an email to support@playgreenhouse.com explaining the situation and we'll up your limit straightaway.

2. There has been a lot of controversy and furor over Mass Effect, Bioshock, and other recent titles that use SecuROM. Some posts on this topic have implied that we're basically doing the same thing as SecuROM, but this is simply untrue. We DO require you to enter a code. We DO perform a one-time online authorization of that code with our servers. But we DON'T install a RootKit on your machine. We DON'T have the game communicate over the internet without disclosing it to you plainly on screen. We DON'T pull tricks that prevent you from running a debugger, running a virtual CD drive, running in a virtual environment, etc, or other surreptitious shenanigans.

3. We did have a couple of early issues with the system where some people couldn't authorize their codes. Specifically, communication with the servers on a high port was being blocked by some firewalls. We released an update today that authorizes your code over port 443 (standard https). We will continue to address issues like this as they come up and improve the way the system works.

When we set out to make the game, we decided to take a very light handed and straightforward approach to DRM. We did however want to protect ourselves from casual copying of the game or sharing of codes. We were not naive that people who were really bent on playing our game without paying would be able to do so. And so we ended up with the system we have, and we think it strikes a good balance.

I've received a lot of mail over the last few days from people thanking us specifically for being so straightforward in our approach. I hope this clarifies things for everyone, and look forward to continuing to hear your feedback.

Just for those people mad that the activation requires internet : you downloaded this game, so you have a way to access the internet. I don't know why something as simple as entering a key and letting it authorize is such a bad thing, they aren't hacking your computer, this isn't them trying to make you out to be hacker pirates or anything of the sort. If you seriously don't trust that the people that make Penny Arcade wouldn't do something to completely f*** you over then why are you complaining in the first place. These people brought you a game you've been waiting for for years and now that it has a simple DRM that <i>might</i> make it so you can't play it oh 10 years from now you're getting pissy and threatening to not buy the game because of some back assward "principles" that you all have against it. This isn't the RIAA. This isn't EA. This isn't GameSpy. Ease up. These people did a wonderful job, and if you can't accept that then make good on your threats and get off the message boards telling us why you won't end up buying this product while everyone else talks about how amazing it is. You are the ones losing out, and I would gladly buy the game a second time just to make up for your dumb ass "principles".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/26/2008 12:15:20

So where are the people railing on valve or ID software every time they realease a game with online play? I think we'd all agree the multiplayer portion of games like quake3 or counter strike are the meat & potatoes of the game, but they have online authorization every single time you play. And if you lose connectivity to the auth server mid-game, you get the boot!

This game has a key check, yes. It does it once, and then its over. Sure you can get a pirated copy somewhere, but why would you? They've been open and supportive to customers, and have fixed a bug with authentication in a patch. I'd call that good customer service. You guys are whining for the sake of whining.

I notice however that many of you like to point to Sins of a Solar Empire and how great its doing without DRM. The PA game released a demo version, which removes the anti-DRM arguement for many people, me included. With the quality of games out now (ie lots suck so much), I've waited to try most games I buy either through rental or borrowing from a friend that has purchased, but SINS didn't really have that option. I'm sure many of the people who bought tried the game out first before buying it. I'm sure the SINS publisher knew exactly what would happen to the game the moment it was released without DRM, and probably considered that a marketing concept.

In the past year I've (re)played X-Com (MicroProse, 1993), Descent (Parallax Software, 1995) and System Shock 2 (Looking Glass Studios, 1999). Several notable things about these game companies:

1. They were awesome.
2. They are gone.
3. I can still play their games.

I want to own a copy of RSPOD for my very own, ideally by exchanging money for it according to the long-established customs. (i.e. buying stuff.) I know Hothead has, in this very thread, set down informal assurances that if they ever join the Choir Invisible they will be sure to remove the online check before doing so. A noble sentiment, although it would mean I would have to await the demise of the company before I truly took full possession that which I ostensibly already owned.

In the interest of allaying the fears of those of us who don tinfoil haberdashery, can you comment on any of the following:

1) I know there will be a retail version at some point. Will that version be unfettered by the need for online activation? If so, I will be happy to buy that when the time comes. I would even be willing to pay extra, particularly if (and I realize this is woefully old-fashioned) I will get a box in which to keep my acquisition.

2) Would you perhaps be willing to remove the check at some fixed point in time which does not require the unfortunate quietus of your entire enterprise as a catalyst? Maybe when Episode 2 comes out, or next year, or even on Yom Kippur? You know, something I could write on a calendar, even if it isn't this year's calender.

3) Will you be selling the entire "season" once the episodes are complete? Perhaps at that point I could buy a version which will still be operable even if you are not?

Basically, anything that allows me to play the game without regard to the health and vigor of the company which produced it would be super-special great. The only thing I am NOT willing to do is to resort to the very measures this system is intended to combat. (The torrentz and haxorz and whatnot.)

I applaud the non-dicks policy which your company has adopted. I am not asserting that you have failed to achieve this laudable goal. I'm just trying to engage in a little due diligence on the investment I'd like to make in your product. To wit: I'm not being a dick either. Can we do business?

I share ShamusYoung's concerns. I can add Planescape: Torment, Master of Orion, and Bard's Tale III to a list of older games someone has played in the last year.

Now, I did in fact purchase Episode 1, but if one comes out unencumbered by DRM there's a more than decent chance I'd buy another copy.

As it so happens, I'm working with some archivists studying some of the issues surrounding the archiving of video games. DRM is one of the top issues- particularly license activated DRM. Archives do have one of the few exemptions to anti-circumvention measures under U.S. law, but 1) it's not exactly in every archivist's skill set, and 2) determining when a game runs on "obsolete" hardware is not exactly clear at this point in time. Anyway, if you want your game to be around in 10+ years, it's something to think about. ^_^ I also appreciate your customer-friendly attitudes here, which is one of the reasons I bought the game in the first place.

I will admit that I time and time again reinstall Diablo 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 for a reminder of the quote/unquote "good old days" of RPG gaming, both true RPG and hack-n-slash, and would be devastated if I was unable to pick up and play these games again, and this is one of those games that will definitely have a nostalgia factor 5-10 years down the line that I would sorely miss if something were to happen. It would be nice if Hothead were to offer some sort of chance to own a boxed copy (maybe special edition with added bonuses for people that bought the game early on

), or maybe package up the whole deal in one box set when the 4th episode is finally released.

I find it hard to believe, however, that even if Hothead games ends up going down at some point in the unforseeable future, that PA would drop the ball on this and not move the auth server into their own possession until a final solution would be found. Let's hope my faith is not misplaced.

I'm seeing a lot of people saying the hassle that DRM imposes on those who have to put up with it is the reason that it shouldn't be used, and the debate to whether or not the DRM for this particular game qualifies as "a hassle". You guys need to understand that this is not a practicality issue.
Digital Restrictions Management in any form is never reasonable, for the simple reason that it restricts the fair use rights of the user. DRM is an unethical and anti-social construct any way you slice it. While Hothead games may have taken into consideration the hassle of DRM and adjusted theirs according, they've still missed the point. Users should not have to deal with restrictions on their freedoms to do with the content that they own.

Technically, aren't we just buying the right to play the game, since every single iota of the game's utter existence is still that of Hothead's, as well as the people who created the Torque engine, the music and sounds, the..... you get my point. The problem here is trying to figure out what constitutes owning a game, or owning digital media. I'm not sure what it is you want to do with this game that having a DRM of this sort restricts. Please inform us as to what heinous crime this institutes against so many people that seem completely okay with it. Please tell me what this horrible system Hothead has developed does to cause an infraction on your rights as a user.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 05/27/2008 11:50:31

slander36 wrote:Technically, aren't we just buying the right to play the game, since every single iota of the game's utter existence is still that of Hothead's, as well as the people who created the Torque engine, the music and sounds, the..... you get my point. The problem here is trying to figure out what constitutes owning a game, or owning digital media.

Unfortunately, the courts are still trying to decide just that. It's a pretty good indication that copyright law has run amok and gone far beyond what is morally acceptable. In general, however, in cases dealing with the resale of digital media, the courts have sided with the first-sale doctrine, indicating that you do in fact own the game.

I'm not sure what it is you want to do with this game that having a DRM of this sort restricts.

Maybe I want to copy it to a CD and be able to play the game in a place where internet is unreliable at best, say, army bases in Iraq? In any case, it shouldn't matter.

Please inform us as to what heinous crime this institutes against so many people that seem completely okay with it. Please tell me what this horrible system Hothead has developed does to cause an infraction on your rights as a user.

While Hothead's DRM system is not "annoying" as others, it still restricts the rights of the user to use the software in any way they see fit. This is a fundamental freedom of the user, and any restrictions upon that freedom are unethical. I understand Hothead's desire to protect their investment, but their efforts with DRM are misguided. Other game companies have been able to make do without DRM, such as Stardock. Read this to see their views on DRM. (update: Stardock's download system uses DRM, so I cannot recommend use of that, but the cd versions of their games do not.)

Doctor Nick wrote:...Stardock. Read this to see their views on DRM.

I just did, and their DRM is pretty much the same as Hothead's, the chief difference being that Stardock requires the use of a special program to download while Hothead simply requires a code and an internet connection. I'd say that Stardock's is more restrictive really.

slander36 wrote:
I find it hard to believe, however, that even if Hothead games ends up going down at some point in the unforseeable future, that PA would drop the ball on this and not move the auth server into their own possession until a final solution would be found. Let's hope my faith is not misplaced.

I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't _want_ to do something of the sort, but thats not quite the same thing as being able to do it. The most likely reasons for Hothead not being there to make your game work in 10 years are that they are bankrupt or bought out by EA for a squazillion dollars and are living in luxury in the Carribean somewhere. Lets assume the latter, but in either case the people making these promises will no longer own the intellectual property that is the game, and will be breaking the law if they do as they are promising.

I appreciate that you guys are coming at this with all the goodwill in the world, but I'd feel a little safer with a solution which didn't involve you having to break the law to follow through. Something like a timed release date for an activation-free version. Then at least we could say to ourselves "well, as long as Hothead is around for another 3 years (or whatever) I'll end up owning an independently runnable copy of the game - I guess thats a bet I'll take." Because "Those guys are cool; they'll break the law to save my game" isn't.