http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/list/9.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net
I noticed there was a screen while I was entering my key that said it was "authorizing".

Is that an online authorization, i.e. communicating with a hothead server in order to start the game? If that is the case, and the game does require online activation to run, will Hothead release a patch in the future should they ever close doors and turn off the auth servers to remove the online portion of the authentication process?
]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1886.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1886.page GMT ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1897.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1897.page GMT [/quote]
Oh I'd hit your servers again... and again... and again...

bowchicka wowa]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1911.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1911.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1912.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1912.page GMT
I can't activate the game, it gives me error 21, problem accessing the licence on the computer.
This is why I don't like DRM.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1915.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1915.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1920.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1920.page GMT
Is there some mechanism that I'm not seeing that prevents me from having to re-authorize again, even on a new PC or a different OS install?]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1927.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1927.page GMT ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1962.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1962.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1986.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/1986.page GMT
[quote]We don't anticipate having to limit the number of redownloads but remember that each new machine or major hardware change may trigger a new key to be issued against your license. Our plan is to allow multiple installs and to be generous in that regard to cover murdered systems, planned upgrades, people wanting to play it on their PC and their Mac or even Linux box etc. Even if the limit is reached--a limit that we have not determined yet--we will be flexible in resetting or increasing the limit for paying customers. If you are registered, we will keep your license keys stored for you in your profile and you will be able to see the number of times that license has been used for various systems so there will be no surprises.[/quote]

]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2006.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2006.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2026.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2026.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2027.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2027.page GMT
How is this DRM system any different or better than what has been so hated about Mass Effect / Spore / Bioshock?

EA relented on the 10-day re-checking of the activation, but they still limit the number of installations, which is exactly what you guys are doing. You're treating paying customers like pirates and it's unfair. The really aggravating part is that the pirates will NEVER have to endure this. They'll crack your EXE by next week, and bypass the authentication process entirely. 5 years from now the pirates will be able to play the game without hassle, but I'll have to wait for support just so that I can install the game that I bought.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2647.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2647.page GMT
So how would you propose that they solve this? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A one time key check is about as non-intrusive as it gets in terms of reasonable protection schemes. If people weren't assholes then there wouldn't need to be anything. But they are and this isn't bad at all. Or would you rather revert to distribution on shiny round things? My best friend, and serious PA fangirl, in Singapore who was playing the game at the same time and for the same price as I was yesterday would disagree with that, I think. Sure it's an imperfect scheme. But it's an imperfect world. And this isn't a bad trade off at all. Life simply ain't black and white. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2653.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2653.page GMT How is this DRM system any different or better than what has been so hated about Mass Effect / Spore / Bioshock?

EA relented on the 10-day re-checking of the activation, but they still limit the number of installations, which is exactly what you guys are doing. You're treating paying customers like pirates and it's unfair. The really aggravating part is that the pirates will NEVER have to endure this. They'll crack your EXE by next week, and bypass the authentication process entirely. 5 years from now the pirates will be able to play the game without hassle, but I'll have to wait for support just so that I can install the game that I bought.[/quote]

Wow. I'm not interpreting this as anything close to that. I think HotHead is actually being quite reasonable with the way this works. You buy it, you download it for whatever OS you want (or all three), and all you need to get it to run is a code, about ten seconds, and an internet connection. New install? Same procedure. You can even carry over your save files and activation key from one OS to the next and have multiple installs going at once. The issue of the limit of installs has already been addressed. There is no hard limit, and if one comes up they'll work with you. How is that "treating me like a pirate"?

I personally see videogames as a consumable good. Only rarely do I ever play 10+-year-old videogames, and when I do it's ones like Doom that have open-sourced clients and I can just pull the WAD file off my game CD. I'm sure that if at some point in the future HotHead goes under (heaven forbid) they'd have the decency to either open up the authentication or find some other mechanism to allow folks to still use the game.

HotHead is already leaps and bounds in my mind ahead of giants like EA simply because not only do they seem to be reasonable folks, they support my favorite operating system (Linux). Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. Mine's just quite different from yours apparently.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2656.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2656.page GMT
So how would you propose that they solve this? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A one time key check is about as non-intrusive as it gets in terms of reasonable protection schemes. If people weren't assholes then there wouldn't need to be anything. But they are and this isn't bad at all. Or would you rather revert to distribution on shiny round things? My best friend, and serious PA fangirl, in Singapore who was playing the game at the same time and for the same price as I was yesterday would disagree with that, I think. Sure it's an imperfect scheme. But it's an imperfect world. And this isn't a bad trade off at all. Life simply ain't black and white. [/quote]

If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, personally I would go with "don't".

My point is that it's NOT a one time check. It's a check for every time I install the game on a new system. Piracy is a reality and no amount of DRM will ever stop it or even slow it down.

I don't have a problem with ONE TIME activation, but that's not what we're talking about.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2659.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2659.page GMT
Once an install is fine. People have internetz these dayz, ya know?]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2660.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2660.page GMT
So how would you propose that they solve this? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A one time key check is about as non-intrusive as it gets in terms of reasonable protection schemes. If people weren't assholes then there wouldn't need to be anything. But they are and this isn't bad at all. Or would you rather revert to distribution on shiny round things? My best friend, and serious PA fangirl, in Singapore who was playing the game at the same time and for the same price as I was yesterday would disagree with that, I think. Sure it's an imperfect scheme. But it's an imperfect world. And this isn't a bad trade off at all. Life simply ain't black and white. [/quote]

If you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, personally I would go with "don't".

My point is that it's NOT a one time check. It's a check for every time I install the game on a new system. Piracy is a reality and no amount of DRM will ever stop it or even slow it down.

I don't have a problem with ONE TIME activation, but that's not what we're talking about.[/quote]

Not an option. To release it unprotected would violate all sorts of due diligence rules and make Hothead's money people stop giving them cash to do awesome work with. And then we [b]all[/b] lose. The correct solution is to stop channeling nutcases like Doctorow and Stallman over a game produced by awesome people. Aside from any technical limits they have to have something in place. They've already told you that their policy is to "do the right thing" if and when it comes up. You're dealing with a small company selected by very groovy people to help produce their product. Are you really worried about this or are you just making some halfwitted internet political stand here? Freetards suck and you're proving why. Badgering these folks over this issue? Yeah, you've lost sight of what's important and have no sense of perspective. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2664.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2664.page GMT
Due to sections 2 and 6 of the EULA, I will not be purchasing Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness. Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form. Furthermore, any such change in the product would require a change in the EULA to confer both rights of ownership and transfer.

I do not expect you to care, nor do I expect this will change anything. But, I do care and this does change my buying habits.

Cheers,
-Brian K. Hlady]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2678.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2678.page GMT
I do find this level of DRM surprising, considering how much Penny Arcade has lambasted it in the past. To wit:

[quote]It's the sort of thing that makes a person invest their leisure time with other machines, or - and this is awesome - pirate games they have themselves purchased by circumventing the check with a cracked exe. This is something I do almost one hundred percent of the time, because I can't be sure I'm receiving the full value of my hardware if I don't.[/quote] --[url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/5/9/]Tycho[/url]

This is exactly what I'll be doing.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2695.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2695.page GMT
Requiring auth servers to be up in 10 years to reinstall the game is unacceptable. I still play my old DOS games, TYVM.

Thanks for taking a dump on your customers.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/9/]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2744.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2744.page GMT I can't speak for HotHead, but to those who refuse to buy the game on principal, more power to you. It's just a game. Those of us who did buy it will continue to enjoy it regardless.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2747.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2747.page GMT
I can't say I know much about canadian laws, but in the US there are no such "due diligence" requirements that go so far as to say "video games distributed digitally must have activation mechanisms that require internet access." I'm willing to bet money that there's no such law in BC / Canada either.

Now if Hothead's financiers (do they even have any? I thought this was self-funded) required it that's different, but no such reason as "due diligence" requires Hothead to use a system like this. Software was sold via digital download for a LOT of years before RSPD came out...and years before online key activation became quite so widespread.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2748.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2748.page GMT
Well said. Also, I disagree with the concept of rent, and will not be moving out of my Mom's basement until such time as landlords stop charging it. Seriously, is the place for this discussion? We're all gamers, we all know the pros and cons of this issue, and I'm sure we've all argued it before, in other forums. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2751.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2751.page GMT
Weis,

Freetard grandstanding knows no bounds. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2754.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2754.page GMT
The cracker will just dig into the EXE, find the part where it tries to go online to authenticate and then disable/bypass/fool it via the usual methods.

If you want to see a company that does no DRM on video games take a look at Stardock. It works fine for them. DRM is a bad business decision in my opinion. You're spending time and money implementing copy protection that will be broken no matter what you do. In addition you'll have people who flat-out refuse to buy the game because of the DRM, so rather than gaining sales, you're losing them. That's the argument I think the money people never hear.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2762.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2762.page GMT
If I have this problem with RSPD, then I'll pirate it, but I'm still going to buy it first.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2768.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2768.page GMT
Oh... so I guess you never hear of Sin of a Solar empire or even Stardock games for that matter, last time I checked they were also doing an "awesome" job and yet they use a single one time DRM free activation (once you download and activate the game you can play it on any computer without ever needing to reactivate it again), and guess what... it sells very well. So maybe you should send them an e-mail telling them how wrong they are and how they violate all sorts of due diligence rules, I am sure they would be happy to know about it.

But seriously if HotHead really insist on using DRM they should at least make them "temporary" either by doing what Telltales does for Sam & Max and release a DRM-free CD version (free for those who bought the digital download version) or, after 3-6 month, release a patch that removes completely the DRM. I know that if they had announced something like that I would have bought the game...]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2770.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2770.page GMT
Due to sections 2 and 6 of the EULA, I will not be purchasing Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness. Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form. Furthermore, any such change in the product would require a change in the EULA to confer both rights of ownership and transfer.

I do not expect you to care, nor do I expect this will change anything. But, I do care and this does change my buying habits.

Cheers,
-Brian K. Hlady[/quote]

You'll be missed.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2773.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2773.page GMT
Yeah...PA announced quite awhile back that they were going to release a CD version of the game about 6 months after the digital release. Remember...they had a tiff with Gamestop about it, because Gamestop said they would only carry the game if PA/Hothead did not do a digital release first.

Count it.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2776.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2776.page GMT
Due to sections 2 and 6 of the EULA, I will not be purchasing Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness. Unless and until such time as you offer this as a product which does not require an internet connection or limit activations, I will not be supporting your company in any way, shape or form. Furthermore, any such change in the product would require a change in the EULA to confer both rights of ownership and transfer.

I do not expect you to care, nor do I expect this will change anything. But, I do care and this does change my buying habits.

Cheers,
-Brian K. Hlady[/quote]

Weren't you technically online when you wrote this? Activation is a one-time thing, then you can play it offline all you want. As far as limited activations, how many computers are you planning on putting it on? If it becomes necessary to do more than they give, they have the option for you to call and ask for more. Don't be an idiot.

Although, I must say that I applaud you for posting such a response instead of passively complaining about it on a forum where it will never be seen by anyone who can influence the policy.
Edit: *posting a response [i]here[/i]]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2781.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2781.page GMT
In all honesty, being rather familiar with DRM/Activation, I'm surprised they didn't use something a little more draconian. Unless there is something to their DRM that I'm not seeing, I don't believe it will stand up to the hacker/cracker community at large for more than a week, maybe even just half that.

When it comes to the "little guy" I don't mind them using severe DRM because they have significantly more to lose if a popular game is widely pirated than EA or some over mega company that hates its customers. For the small development houses one major title being widely pirated is all it can take to put a profitable company into the red.

This is the first piece of PC software I have purchased since 1997, if I don't have a f***ing problem buying it no one else should.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2786.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2786.page GMT
I fail to see how it is any more(or less for that matter) "reasonable" than the one used for Bioshock or Mass Effect. And in several countries breaking a DRM is against the law, no matter if it's for playing a game you legaly bought.

[quote]When it comes to the "little guy" I don't mind them using severe DRM because they have significantly more to lose if a popular game is widely pirated than EA or some over mega company that hates its customers. For the small development houses one major title being widely pirated is all it can take to put a profitable company into the red.[/quote]

For it to be widely pirated it first needs to be widely popular and if it's widely popular it's going to be cracked within days anyways, so in the end it leaves only the legit consumers to suffer from the DRM or other copy protection method. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2806.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2806.page GMT http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=58840

[quote]The system was designed just to keep people honest not be a buzz kill. Officially, yes, we don't want people to be passing their codes to everyone under the sun and from Hothead's perspective, I think we have a right to try to prevent that but not at the cost at getting in your face.

First, we designed it to allow you to take it to multiple computers or even switch to a different OS. As well, if you need more installs because you hit the initial limit, just ask. We are not going to be dicks. And if we ever go out of business, we will make sure you are taken care of regarding playing the game long into the future.

EDIT: And if you ever want your kids to play it in the future, we are not going to care about that--we are not trying to protect ourselves against you guys but rather others that would exploit what we have done hence the legalese.[/quote]

Hothead/P-A/Greenhouse needs to keep paying to have the auth servers running, when people stop buying the game down the road, will they keep paying? Forever?
When they stop, it's lights out. Just like how MS has turned off their auth servers to peoples whole music collections.

No matter the intention, it's unacceptable.
]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2838.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2838.page GMT
[quote=finlay]Hothead responds in the P-A forums:
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=58840

[quote]The system was designed just to keep people honest not be a buzz kill. Officially, yes, we don't want people to be passing their codes to everyone under the sun and from Hothead's perspective, I think we have a right to try to prevent that but not at the cost at getting in your face.

First, we designed it to allow you to take it to multiple computers or even switch to a different OS. As well, if you need more installs because you hit the initial limit, just ask. We are not going to be dicks. And if we ever go out of business, we will make sure you are taken care of regarding playing the game long into the future.

EDIT: And if you ever want your kids to play it in the future, we are not going to care about that--we are not trying to protect ourselves against you guys but rather others that would exploit what we have done hence the legalese.[/quote]

Hothead/P-A/Greenhouse needs to keep paying to have the auth servers running, when people stop buying the game down the road, will they keep paying? Forever?
When they stop, it's lights out. Just like how MS has turned off their auth servers to peoples whole music collections.

No matter the intention, it's unacceptable.
[/quote]]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2841.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2841.page GMT
I can't help thinking that the BioShock and Mass Effect controversy is different to this RSPD question: Bx and ME were games on DVD which you popped into your drive. You needed an actual physical thing to get access to the game: not the internet, which was a tacked-on DRM check. Apart from the check, you didn't need the internet at any stage of the game. But with RSPD, you need the internet to get it in the first place since it download-only so it's kind of a given that you already have it.

I also have sympathy for Indie devs using DRM since they are far more vulnerable when it comes to sales and finances.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2861.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2861.page GMT
Let me put it this way, you live in a fucking bubble. The real world is not black and white, it's the most wonderful shade of gray you will ever see. You're attempting to live outside that melange of colours, and it's just not possible. You are not compatible with human society. You would like it to be one thing, but it isn't. When you start living your life for reals, dealing with grown-up problems, get back to me on your unreasonable stance on Digital Rights Management. We'll laugh and have a beer.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2870.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2870.page GMT There's a difference between a game you downloaded online and a CD in your hand. I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that the demo download _is_ the game. If you download the demo, do you want to play for a while, run into the "oops, thats all there is in the demo" wall and be able to start playing again 2 minutes later (after paying and getting the code)? In that case, you pretty much have to use authorization servers and have the demo download be the full game. Without some form of online DRM, there just isn't any easy way to stop the demo from turning into the full game. You can have a list of valid codes inside the game somehow, but what if you sell more copies? and what if someone posts their key to a website for anyone to use? With online authorization you can slow a lot of this down, by banning the key after its been used 100 times in a single day, or other obvious pirated behavior. Its still a fairly small speedbump, since pirates will break it, but its enough to keep most people honest.

The alternative way to handle online demos is to have the demo be a completely separate executable, stripped down from the full game. In that case, you'd have to download the full version of the game again, once your purchase gave you access to the servers to download it. And it would still be pretty dang easy to buy it once, put the full version on a website somewhere, and have a pirated version of the game out 10 minutes after the official one.

I would expect that if a CD version of this game comes out, that the online authorization would not be part of it. In that case you already require a physical disk, so there's already a small speedbump to pirating the game. And small is all you really want.

The "10 years" problem does exist, but solutions exist as well. Sure Microsoft screwed up and told their customers to go to hell when they stopped their DRM authorizations, but that is _not_ the only way to handle this. Releasing a patch to remove the authorization if the servers ever do go down would be perfectly acceptable to me, but I hope we don't have to see that proven for quite some time. Admittedly, a statement that they intend to do this, and/or have the patches standing by if they ever become necessary would be nice, but I don't think its required. And I also wouldn't be surprised if they remove authorization requirements for the first episode completely after a few penny arcane episodes are out, as a teaser to get you to buy the newer ones.

]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2889.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/2889.page GMT
[quote]Okay, here is the latest:

1) We will adjust the EULA further especially regarding concurrent use so that it is clear that we are not in fact dicks
2) Our goal was a system that was lightweight, as transparent as possible and not in your face. We will spend more time and make it better and we are listening. PA and Hothead goals were common 1) unfortunately something is needed, and 2) make it simple and transparent. To be clear, it was Hothead's implementation of the stated goals and there is no reason we can't improve it.
3) The fix is incoming regarding Error 21. There were two places in code where we did not handle unicode (international characters) for Windows properly. Actually the fix is done and we are testing new builds tomorrow and will have the new version out as fast as we can.[/quote]

I posted this over there as well...but you can consider me placated. I'm willing to accept online activation because I don't ever forsee myself being without internet. What I wasn't willing to accept was Online Authentication + 3 installs max. They understand how we feel on this subject, and are even going so far as to ammend their EULA...a step I can't personally ever remember seeing done by another developer. We'll have to see what form it takes, but for now I'm happy with their pledge to "not be dicks", and from what it sounds like they aren't really enforcing the 3 install max anyway...they're just reserving the right to do so.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3090.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3090.page GMT Good work, guys
It was really a pleasant surprise, being a good game in its own right, rather than just a mashed-together Flash game with the PA stamp on it.

When that is said, I'm really disappointed to hear that there's a limit on how many systems I can install the game on. I already put it on my laptop after I bought it (because I wasn't home at the time), and on my desktop when I got home. That's two activations gone. Shame I'm planning to upgrade my desktop next month. Then I'll have used all my authorizations for now, I guess.

So, the situation looks like this: You don't want people to pirate the game. That makes sense.
On the other hand, I really don't want to have to "beg" you for permission to please reinstall the game I bought from you. I paid for it, I'd like to be able to install it even after I upgrade my computer. And without having to call you up and explain myself. (Someone mentioned the security tags on clothes above. The nice thing about those is that they're *removed* once you've bought your shirt. After that, you're free to wear it *as much as you like*, without having to ask the store for permission)
It also seems to me that it'd be a needless extra expense for *you* to handle support calls like that. You've got better things to spend your resources on than answering phone calls/emails from people asking for more activations.

Of course, I now have your words for you "not wanting to be dicks" and even revising the EULA, which is nice.
But since I don't know exactly *what* you're going to change, here's my suggestion:

How about simply [i]automatically[/i] "recharging" customers' activations over time? I had 3 activations when I bought it. Every month from now on, say, you give me one extra activation (always capped to a max of 3).
Right now, as far as I can figure out, I have one left. Next month, you give me one extra, so I have two. Not counting computer upgrades, the month after that I'll be capped at 3 again, and will stay at 3 until I use another activation.

*If* I wanted to pirate it, I'd have to be really careful, giving the game to *at most* one person a month. So you've eliminated mass piracy at least, which I assume was the intention. I can't just put the game on a torrent site with my cd key.

As far as I can see, this means that:
- I'm happy. I'll be able to reinstall and play the game 8 years from now, after upgrading my computer half a dozen times. And I never have to ask anyone to please let me install the game *again*
- The game would still be just as hard to pirate as it is now.
- You save money by not having to deal with customers asking for more activations.

Win/win situation? Please consider it. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3095.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3095.page GMT
Please, please let people know what the DRM requirements are (if any) BEFORE they buy, so those who object can avoid purchasing. Also note that your system requirements don't mention the need for an internet connection; it's a small thing, but it should be absolutely clear.

I won't be buying things here again until this changes - which is too bad, because the game has been pretty fun so far. My hat is off to you for a good game. Good luck!]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3158.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3158.page GMT
I am a douchy holier-than-thou anti-DRM activist with no ties to the real world or the way money works. Your one-time activation is completely egregious to me, since I require an internet connection to activate it, and I was pirating my neighbor's wireless to download the game so I can stay off the grid with my tinfoil hat. When my mother kicks me out of the basement I won't be able to re-install your game because I won't be able to afford the internet.

But seriously... this is the least intrusive DRM ever. No disc required. No repeat authorizations. And really you guys saying you replay games 10 years down the road are seriously being asshats. I know we all hate DRM on principle, but many people in business still don't understand that it doesn't affect anyone but paying customers, and GH has really worked to make this completely unintrusive. When I installed, I didn't even realize it was authorizing it flashed by so quickly.

To sum up: shut up, get a job, and stop taking yourselves so seriously.

chaos]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3238.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3238.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3274.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3274.page GMT
And that somehow makes it ok? There ARE repeat activations, every time you install. Unless of course the servers are gone, at which point there are [i]no[/i] authorizations, ever again. Or are you able to predict the future?

[quote=chaoslord]I know we all hate DRM on principle, but many people in business still don't understand that it doesn't affect anyone but paying customers, and GH has really worked to make this completely unintrusive. When I installed, I didn't even realize it was authorizing it flashed by so quickly.[/quote]

So, because it's easy, that makes it right?

[quote=chaoslord]To sum up: shut up, get a job, and stop taking yourselves so seriously.[/quote]

I have a job, and I won't shut up. I'm sick of this crap. It is a PRINCIPLE, something you are clearly willing to push aside for the sake of convenience.

[quote=chaoslord]I am a douchy holier-than-thou anti-DRM activist with no ties to the real world or the way money works.[/quote]

You know what? [i]I just tied it to the real world and the way money works.[/i] I won't shop here again. Wrap your brain around that.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3276.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3276.page GMT
The section of the market that DRM ever really works on are those without much clue about how to obtain pirate copies, cracks and the like. The size of that sector of the market is probably tiny for a game like RSPoD, which is largely going to be played by well informed gamers. They are the target market for PA after all.

I don't think Hothead are evil for using DRM. It's their game, and the method they've chosen doesn't seem to pose any privacy or security risks, like some DRM schemes that shall remain nameless. I just don't personally think it's going to make a gnat's hair of difference to their sales.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3306.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3306.page GMT
Thanks!

]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3308.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3308.page GMT
Meanwhile people in the support section are having problem because some not too bright programmer decided it'd be nice to take your money on port 80 (http) and 443 (https) (which are open on practically every network), but to activate your game on port 328%333pound or something equally silly.

Of course I did buy the game. I didn't have any problems activating it, but can think of at least 2 situations where it would not have worked for me (LAN at work and if it'd be using the cellular network while traveling). That would definatly have translated into future lost sales from me.

My advice, release a patch in the near future that removes this authentication in favor of a simple client side CD key check. Any benefit you had from the system was mostly in the first 24/48hours anyway, and if you act quick enough you can limit the fallout of screwing over your users... or, for what it's worth, ending the rather uncomfortable situation of the two people behind this game comparing this kind of system with anal visitations by robots and then adopting it a few days later.

Also, about the guy who couln't be bothered to write an online authentication service that uses a normal HTTP(S) request? Slap him with a large trout.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3455.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3455.page GMT
How is this DRM system any different or better than what has been so hated about Mass Effect / Spore / Bioshock?

EA relented on the 10-day re-checking of the activation, but they still limit the number of installations, which is exactly what you guys are doing. You're treating paying customers like pirates and it's unfair. The really aggravating part is that the pirates will NEVER have to endure this. They'll crack your EXE by next week, and bypass the authentication process entirely. 5 years from now the pirates will be able to play the game without hassle, but I'll have to wait for support just so that I can install the game that I bought.[/quote]

I have a solution... If you hate the DRM so much that it kills the experience for you.

1: Buy the game.
2: DL the pirated version.

Pa / Hothead get paid.

You get a DRM free game.

Everybody wins!]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3559.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3559.page GMT I have a solution... If you hate the DRM so much that it kills the experience for you.
1: Buy the game.
2: DL the pirated version.[/quote]
I've already done the first thing, and am sortof planning on the second. So it's not a bad idea, but it doesn't solve the problem that (a) it's actually illegal and (b) we still paid for the DRM. The whole idea is that we'd like to buy a game without DRM and [i]not[/i] be considered criminals.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3564.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3564.page GMT
1. The limit on the number of installs is solely intended to prevent casual copying of the game and sharing of license codes. If you have more than three machines that you want to play the game on, send an email to support@playgreenhouse.com explaining the situation and we'll up your limit straightaway.

2. There has been a lot of controversy and furor over Mass Effect, Bioshock, and other recent titles that use SecuROM. Some posts on this topic have implied that we're basically doing the same thing as SecuROM, but this is simply untrue. We DO require you to enter a code. We DO perform a one-time online authorization of that code with our servers. But we DON'T install a RootKit on your machine. We DON'T have the game communicate over the internet without disclosing it to you plainly on screen. We DON'T pull tricks that prevent you from running a debugger, running a virtual CD drive, running in a virtual environment, etc, or other surreptitious shenanigans.

3. We did have a couple of early issues with the system where some people couldn't authorize their codes. Specifically, communication with the servers on a high port was being blocked by some firewalls. We released an update today that authorizes your code over port 443 (standard https). We will continue to address issues like this as they come up and improve the way the system works.

When we set out to make the game, we decided to take a very light handed and straightforward approach to DRM. We did however want to protect ourselves from casual copying of the game or sharing of codes. We were not naive that people who were really bent on playing our game without paying would be able to do so. And so we ended up with the system we have, and we think it strikes a good balance.

I've received a lot of mail over the last few days from people thanking us specifically for being so straightforward in our approach. I hope this clarifies things for everyone, and look forward to continuing to hear your feedback.
]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3569.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3569.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3574.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3574.page GMT
This game has a key check, yes. It does it once, and then its over. Sure you can get a pirated copy somewhere, but why would you? They've been open and supportive to customers, and have fixed a bug with authentication in a patch. I'd call that good customer service. You guys are whining for the sake of whining.

I notice however that many of you like to point to Sins of a Solar Empire and how great its doing without DRM. The PA game released a demo version, which removes the anti-DRM arguement for many people, me included. With the quality of games out now (ie lots suck so much), I've waited to try most games I buy either through rental or borrowing from a friend that has purchased, but SINS didn't really have that option. I'm sure many of the people who bought tried the game out first before buying it. I'm sure the SINS publisher knew exactly what would happen to the game the moment it was released without DRM, and probably considered that a marketing concept. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3931.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3931.page GMT
1. They were awesome.
2. They are gone.
3. I can still play their games.

I want to own a copy of RSPOD for my very own, ideally by exchanging money for it according to the long-established customs. (i.e. buying stuff.) I know Hothead has, in this very thread, set down informal assurances that if they ever join the Choir Invisible they will be sure to remove the online check before doing so. A noble sentiment, although it would mean I would have to await the demise of the company before I truly took full possession that which I ostensibly already owned.

In the interest of allaying the fears of those of us who don tinfoil haberdashery, can you comment on any of the following:

1) I know there will be a retail version at some point. Will that version be unfettered by the need for online activation? If so, I will be happy to buy that when the time comes. I would even be willing to pay extra, particularly if (and I realize this is woefully old-fashioned) I will get a box in which to keep my acquisition.

2) Would you perhaps be willing to remove the check at some fixed point in time which does not require the unfortunate quietus of your entire enterprise as a catalyst? Maybe when Episode 2 comes out, or next year, or even on Yom Kippur? You know, something I could write on a calendar, even if it isn't this year's calender.

3) Will you be selling the entire "season" once the episodes are complete? Perhaps at that point I could buy a version which will still be operable even if you are not?

Basically, anything that allows me to play the game without regard to the health and vigor of the company which produced it would be super-special great. The only thing I am NOT willing to do is to resort to the very measures this system is intended to combat. (The torrentz and haxorz and whatnot.)

I applaud the non-dicks policy which your company has adopted. I am not asserting that you have failed to achieve this laudable goal. I'm just trying to engage in a little due diligence on the investment I'd like to make in your product. To wit: I'm not being a dick either. Can we do business? ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3978.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3978.page GMT
Now, I did in fact purchase Episode 1, but if one comes out unencumbered by DRM there's a more than decent chance I'd buy another copy.

As it so happens, I'm working with some archivists studying some of the issues surrounding the archiving of video games. DRM is one of the top issues- particularly license activated DRM. Archives do have one of the few exemptions to anti-circumvention measures under U.S. law, but 1) it's not exactly in every archivist's skill set, and 2) determining when a game runs on "obsolete" hardware is not exactly clear at this point in time. Anyway, if you want your game to be around in 10+ years, it's something to think about. ^_^ I also appreciate your customer-friendly attitudes here, which is one of the reasons I bought the game in the first place.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3998.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/3998.page GMT ), or maybe package up the whole deal in one box set when the 4th episode is finally released.

I find it hard to believe, however, that even if Hothead games ends up going down at some point in the unforseeable future, that PA would drop the ball on this and not move the auth server into their own possession until a final solution would be found. Let's hope my faith is not misplaced.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4013.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4013.page GMT [b]Digital Restrictions Management in any form is never reasonable[/b], for the simple reason that it restricts the fair use rights of the user. DRM is an unethical and anti-social construct any way you slice it. While Hothead games may have taken into consideration the hassle of DRM and adjusted theirs according, they've still missed the point. Users should not have to deal with restrictions on their freedoms to do with the content that they own. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4014.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4014.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4017.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4017.page GMT Unfortunately, the courts are still trying to decide just that. It's a pretty good indication that copyright law has run amok and gone far beyond what is morally acceptable. In general, however, in cases dealing with the resale of digital media, the courts have sided with the first-sale doctrine, indicating that you do in fact own the game.
[quote] I'm not sure what it is you want to [i]do[/i] with this game that having a DRM of this sort restricts.[/quote]
Maybe I want to copy it to a CD and be able to play the game in a place where internet is unreliable at best, say, army bases in Iraq? In any case, it shouldn't matter.
[quote] Please inform us as to what heinous crime this institutes against so many people that seem completely okay with it. Please tell me what this horrible system Hothead has developed does to cause an infraction on your rights as a user.[/quote]
While Hothead's DRM system is not "annoying" as others, it still restricts the rights of the user to use the software in any way they see fit. This is a fundamental freedom of the user, and any restrictions upon that freedom are unethical. I understand Hothead's desire to protect their investment, but their efforts with DRM are misguided. Other game companies have been able to make do without DRM, such as Stardock. [url=http://forums.galciv2.com/147885]Read this to see their views on DRM.[/url] (update: Stardock's download system uses DRM, so I cannot recommend use of that, but the cd versions of their games do not.)]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4029.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4029.page GMT
I just did, and their DRM is pretty much the same as Hothead's, the chief difference being that Stardock requires the use of a special program to download while Hothead simply requires a code and an internet connection. I'd say that Stardock's is more restrictive really.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4033.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4033.page GMT I find it hard to believe, however, that even if Hothead games ends up going down at some point in the unforseeable future, that PA would drop the ball on this and not move the auth server into their own possession until a final solution would be found. Let's hope my faith is not misplaced.[/quote]
I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't _want_ to do something of the sort, but thats not quite the same thing as being able to do it. The most likely reasons for Hothead not being there to make your game work in 10 years are that they are bankrupt or bought out by EA for a squazillion dollars and are living in luxury in the Carribean somewhere. Lets assume the latter, but in either case the people making these promises will no longer own the intellectual property that is the game, and will be breaking the law if they do as they are promising.

I appreciate that you guys are coming at this with all the goodwill in the world, but I'd feel a little safer with a solution which didn't involve you having to break the law to follow through. Something like a timed release date for an activation-free version. Then at least we could say to ourselves "well, as long as Hothead is around for another 3 years (or whatever) I'll end up owning an independently runnable copy of the game - I guess thats a bet I'll take." Because "Those guys are cool; they'll break the law to save my game" isn't.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4101.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4101.page GMT
I just did, and their DRM is pretty much the same as Hothead's, the chief difference being that Stardock requires the use of a special program to download while Hothead simply requires a code and an internet connection. I'd say that Stardock's is more restrictive really.[/quote]

Hmm. I thought that the game did not require activation to play, and that the verification was simply for the download process, but it does. That's disheartening.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4107.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4107.page GMT
Shamus offers several reasonable suggestions. I'm a happy season pass subscriber to both seasons of Telltales [i]Sam & Max[/i] games; I'm looking forward to sending them money for season three as well as the upcoming Strong Bad game. Part of why I'm happy to send them money is that when a season finishes, for the price of production and shipping (a few bucks), they'll send me a CD with the season's episodes, in a DRM free form. It's clearly a profitable model; they're working on several new series as well as continuing [i]Sam & Max[/i]. I hope something like that is put in place for the [i]Penny Arcade Adventures[/i].]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4117.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4117.page GMT
It's not a bad thing. I'm happy for them to apply some measure to protect their work - [i]as long as it doesn't impact on me as a customer[/i]. I don't really care too much about what measures are used as long as I don't notice them.

I do not have an internet connection at home, but do have access to internet cafes where I can purchase and download the game - why do they want to exclude me from their potential market?

As it stands, what I paid for is worthless to me at the moment.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4197.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4197.page GMT
It's not a bad thing. I'm happy for them to apply some measure to protect their work - [i]as long as it doesn't impact on me as a customer[/i]. I don't really care too much about what measures are used as long as I don't notice them.

I do not have an internet connection at home, but do have access to internet cafes where I can purchase and download the game - why do they want to exclude me from their potential market?

As it stands, what I paid for is worthless to me at the moment.[/quote]

Are you sure you can't save it onto a flash drive and then install it on your own home computer?]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4200.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4200.page GMT
You can install the demo, you just can't activate it. I've calmed down a bit about it now

Unless there's a way to work around this though, either officially or unofficially, I just won't get the next episodes.

If you can get internet access for just the few moments it takes to authenticate you should be fine though.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4202.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4202.page GMT http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4229.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4229.page GMT
To my mind, DRM is pointless. If you look at games devs such as Introversion Software, they haven't put DRM on either of their first two games, and as the third game was online only, requiring an authentication check is no biggy. (Anyone trying to claim the code card that came with uplink was a method of DRM will get spanked with my titanium spork ) They also came up with a more effective idea for stopping early piracy. We, the community, had around 30 different fake versions of Darwinia on the torrents at one point, with several thousand peers. The games weren't just blank, they contained a copy that appeared to be legit, until you reached then end of the second or third level, at which point the game would end, and ask you to buy the full copy. By padding the files with various amounts of junk, it was made very hard to distinguish real from fake. I don't know if this generated any sales, but it was a good way to get the community to help you beat the pirates without treating the legitimate customers as the criminals.

So we come to this game. I don't mind buying it, precisely because DRM is so useless. The copy of the game I use on my main (linux) box is the legit client which has been authenticated, the copy on my 2nd windows box (which has no net connection 99% of the time), is a pirate copy. This for me is the crux of the issue, we don't NEED to boycott games because they have DRM, eventually, the devs will realise it is costing them more in time to code, and tech support for DRM, than they are saving in preventing piracy. There are those out there who will never buy games, and will only pirate them. I will admit for a while I fell into this category, before I realised how self-destructive this behaviour was. You just have to ignore these people, the vast majority are still willing to fork over cash, if the product is good enough.

In the end, the thing that finally swayed me to buy it was the Linux release. I feel it is far more import to reward the few devs that produce games for Linux, than it is too punish the majority of developers that use DRM

]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4236.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4236.page GMT
Like I said: I'm just engaging in a little due diligence. Can we do business?


]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4367.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4367.page GMT In the end, the thing that finally swayed me to buy it was the Linux release. I feel it is far more import to reward the few devs that produce games for Linux, than it is too punish the majority of developers that use DRM

[/quote]

I agree. Although I am opposed to DRM on principle, I believe that helping support game developers on linux outweighs my objections to this particular instance of DRM on the game. However, that won't stop me from speaking out against the DRM on the game, and I will still be trying to change the minds of the developers and the users about this issue.

Regarding the "code card" with Uplink, I'm not completely sure how the game was distributed, but I believe that it was distributed as shareware and the code card was required to activate it. Distributing your software as shareware and requiring activation for the full version is fine. However, when you buy the full version of the software, you should have the option of receiving the full game unencumbered with DRM. I believe that was the deal with Uplink as well. ([b]edit:[/b] Uplink was not distributed as shareware, and the code card was something else entirely, sorry about the confusion. The point about shareware still stands, though.)

Regarding authentication of online games, this is also fine. This can be thought of as subscribing to a service when buying the game. UT3 was a perfect example of this. It required a key for online play, but you could play offline without entering one. Authenticating when using an online service makes perfect sense.

Anyway, while I hope Hothead changes their mind about this, I still give them big ups for supporting games on Linux from the start.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4371.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4371.page GMT
Nope. It was never shareware (well, I believe the American company who released it may have done a shareware version, but they ended up in legal battles with introversion anyway!) The code card was put in by the devs as a homage to the old games which first used code cards - where to play games you would have to input a code or a colour to play (Can't rember the exact name of the game they were paying homage to though!)]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4378.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4378.page GMT
DRM is worthless in this game because it will only piss legit customers when they:
[list]A. Run into problems with authenticating[/list]
[list]B. Try to install it on a PC without net connection (yes, they still exist)[/list]
[list]C. Want to play it much later in the future or after various reinstallations. Having to contact support and wait a few hours at best or a few days at worst is not fun when you want to play a quick game.[/list]

You say you just want to prevent the casual copying of the game but currently, noone bothers in swapping CDs around. Knowledge spreads by word of mouth and sharing happens with torrents. If someone would like to share the game with a friend, they would not email them the game, they would email them a .torrent file. It's easier that way and you ignore Copy Protection schemes.

Yes, not getting money for your work sucks but if you made the cost of the game low enough, there is not reason for people to pirate. Piracy is the better choice only because the publishers shoot themselves in the foor with DRM & Costs.
Drop the price of the game to 10$, remove DRM and make dead-easy to pay and you'll potentially double your market. It would take a really commited pirate to decide that a non-DRM, almost-free game is still not worth supporting. If you were to put a notice in the game that said something like "If you have pirated this game and you liked it, please consider bying it for 10$ (link)" you instantly get word of mouth advertisement from torrent sites. Include some kind of tangible good for people who buy it (poster or whatever) and the benefit starts to be bigger.
You could even make the boxed set more expensive but provide more than just the CD. If you were to provide extra stuff that cannot be downloaded (Like Trent Reznor did) then the value of the boxed set increases and even people who bought the game may have an incentive to buy the box set.

One last thing I'd like to touch on:
[quote][b]Quoth Joel:[/b] The limit on the number of installs is solely intended to prevent casual copying of the game and sharing of license codes. If you have more than three machines that you want to play the game on, send an email to support@playgreenhouse.com explaining the situation and we'll up your limit straightaway. [/quote]

That is, until a bunch of people out there abuses your trust and goodwill and attempts to get 10x10 activations for all their friends and family. Then you decide that this is not such a good idea and require more proof or whatever, making it annoying for the rest of us.

I am glad that you guys are trying hard not to be dicks, which is why I've supported you by bying this game, but it is in your best interest to ditch DRM schemes and embrace your customers. Goodwill goes a long way in this age.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4379.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4379.page GMT
Nope. It was never shareware (well, I believe the American company who released it may have done a shareware version, but they ended up in legal battles with introversion anyway!) The code card was put in by the devs as a homage to the old games which first used code cards - where to play games you would have to input a code or a colour to play (Can't rember the exact name of the game they were paying homage to though!)[/quote]

Oh, ok. I was just trying to make a point about shareware anyway ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4380.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4380.page GMT
I just did, and their DRM is pretty much the same as Hothead's, the chief difference being that Stardock requires the use of a special program to download while Hothead simply requires a code and an internet connection. I'd say that Stardock's is more restrictive really.[/quote]

Not true at all.

Yes, you need to use your serial key and an internet connection to download anything from Stardock. That includes upgrades and the install files for the game if the version you bought didn't come with a DVD. This is unavoidable by definition - if you have bought a version of the game which doesn't have media and can only be downloaded then obviously you will have to download it over the internet!

However, if you buy a Stardock game which comes with a DVD (either at retail or online with it mailed to you) then you don't need any internet connection. Just use the DVD. From memory I don't think you even need to enter the serial number during install from DVD. If you want to upgrade your game to the latest version then yes you need to download them from Stardock... hardly an unusual scenario for patches though!

Even if you did buy the download only version I believe you can archive the install files for the game so once you have downloaded them once you don't need to again. You can also use these archived install files to reinstall it on a new computer without having to download (I have done this to transfer my Stardock games to new PCs without downloading the install files again).

Frankly Stardock is still standing head and shoulders above any other reasonable sized game developers in terms of how they treat their customers.

Long may it continue!]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4700.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4700.page GMT You say you just want to prevent the casual copying of the game but currently, noone bothers in swapping CDs around. Knowledge spreads by word of mouth and sharing happens with torrents. If someone would like to share the game with a friend, they would not email them the game, they would email them a .torrent file. It's easier that way and you ignore Copy Protection schemes.

...........

That is, until a bunch of people out there abuses your trust and goodwill and attempts to get 10x10 activations for all their friends and family. Then you decide that this is not such a good idea and require more proof or whatever, making it annoying for the rest of us.
[/quote]

You broke your own point.

Nobody bothers swapping CDs. But if all it took was one guy posting their download code to, say, GameFAQs or some big forum....

Then a bunch of people who otherwise don't know how to pirate, wouldn't bother to pirate, or consider the lack security reason to make this "okay sharing"...

The system in place stops this.

And yeah, uh, I am no businessman. But halving the price of your product to stop pirates doesn't seem like "the solution" to me. That's like telling a person with a nice car that they should've bought a cheaper car if they didn't want it stolen.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4702.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4702.page GMT
The second sentence just shows the weakness in that mentality.
[quote]
And yeah, uh, I am no businessman. But halving the price of your product to stop pirates doesn't seem like "the solution" to me. That's like telling a person with a nice car that they should've bought a cheaper car if they didn't want it stolen.[/quote]

That is a weak analogy. A car is nothing like a digital good and sharing is not stealing. And yes, reducing your price can easily reduce piracy.
Think of it as a car dealer reducing the price of his cars in order to compete with someone who is renting out cars for zero cost.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4703.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4703.page GMT
The second sentence just shows the weakness in that mentality.
[quote]
And yeah, uh, I am no businessman. But halving the price of your product to stop pirates doesn't seem like "the solution" to me. That's like telling a person with a nice car that they should've bought a cheaper car if they didn't want it stolen.[/quote]

That is a weak analogy. A car is nothing like a digital good and sharing is not stealing. And yes, reducing your price can easily reduce piracy.
Think of it as a car dealer reducing the price of his cars in order to compete with someone who is renting out cars for zero cost.[/quote]
You're the one with the false analogy here. To blame the theft of a good on the price is still completely ridiculous. The price for setting your price too high in the business world is lower sales, not theft.

Further, if you end up "sharing" by downloading the program onto somebody else's machine, which most novice computer users can do, that's getting the other person the full copy without them paying for it. It's not like you bought a console game disc or cartridge and are lending to somebody else. In that scenario, you have NO access to the program until the other person returns the item. In this, you've recreated the item and distributed it yourself free of cost.

I don't think you understand what they mean by casual copying. They aren't trying to avoid the torrent sites so much as they want to keep Joe Average from giving everybody his copy because he's a dickhead with a warped sense of justice.

But yeah. Back to your analogy:

It doesn't fit. There aren't two competing businesses here. There are a large number of people that would give download keys away casually, and Hothead. One offers the product for a cost, and is trying to make a profit. This is because they worked to CREATE the product, and thus want to benefit from their hard work. The other paid for the product, but then due to the digital nature of it has been tossing around copies and taking away customers from Hothead. Hothead cuts off this sort of copying, by people who wouldn't use torrent sites, with a simple check. And it works.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4709.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4709.page GMT
There is no theft. There is file sharing.

[quote]Further, if you end up "sharing" by downloading the program onto somebody else's machine, which most novice computer users can do, that's getting the other person the full copy without them paying for it. It's not like you bought a console game disc or cartridge and are lending to somebody else. In that scenario, you have NO access to the program until the other person returns the item. In this, you've recreated the item and distributed it yourself free of cost. [/quote]

Most novice users know how to use a file sharing program well enough. Hell, file sharing programs are one of the first things that users install on their PCs.
In the last 5 years I only had to lend a game CD/DVD to a friend once. Generally they just download it.
Your scenario has been the minority case for the last few years.

[quote]I don't think you understand what they mean by casual copying. They aren't trying to avoid the torrent sites so much as they want to keep Joe Average from giving everybody his copy because he's a dickhead with a warped sense of justice. [/quote]

Oh, I understand very well and I've had [url=http://aldacron.net/blog/2008/04/30/drm-hell/#comment-25239]such discussions before[/url]. What I'm disputing is that "casual copying" is so widespread and/or more than file sharing online, that such measures prevent it and that that it does more good than harm.

[quote]It doesn't fit. There aren't two competing businesses here. There are a large number of people that would give download keys away casually, and Hothead. One offers the product for a cost, and is trying to make a profit. This is because they worked to CREATE the product, and thus want to benefit from their hard work. The other paid for the product, but then due to the digital nature of it has been tossing around copies and taking away customers from Hothead. Hothead cuts off this sort of copying, by people who wouldn't use torrent sites, with a simple check. And it works.[/quote]

I'm not arguing that Hothead should not be rewarded for their work, I'm arguing on what is the best way to do that. Believe you me, I want more PA games to come out in the future and I'd like them to be as succesful as possible.
What I am arguing is that it does not work, or rather, it works better without DRM and lower costs.
It's economics. The nature of the good (Digital Game) makes it infinite, thus its cost will always be driven to zero. Thus Hothead needs to compete with a zero priced good and the only way they can do that is by providing extra value to the product that file sharing cannot monetize on (like tangible goods) or appeal to ethics by removing DRM and offering a low enough price. As I have seen simply from the threads that exist solely to thank Hothead for giving out a Gnu/Linux version (and how many people bought it because of that fact), doing the right thing works.

Finally, you may gnash your teeth all you like about piracy but it will not stop it happening. Either work with it, or lose out.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4712.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4712.page GMT
I just did, and their DRM is pretty much the same as Hothead's, the chief difference being that Stardock requires the use of a special program to download while Hothead simply requires a code and an internet connection. I'd say that Stardock's is more restrictive really.[/quote]

Not true at all.

Yes, you need to use your serial key and an internet connection to download anything from Stardock. That includes upgrades and the install files for the game if the version you bought didn't come with a DVD. This is unavoidable by definition - if you have bought a version of the game which doesn't have media and can only be downloaded then obviously you will have to download it over the internet!

However, if you buy a Stardock game which comes with a DVD (either at retail or online with it mailed to you) then you don't need any internet connection. Just use the DVD. From memory I don't think you even need to enter the serial number during install from DVD. If you want to upgrade your game to the latest version then yes you need to download them from Stardock... hardly an unusual scenario for patches though!

Even if you did buy the download only version I believe you can archive the install files for the game so once you have downloaded them once you don't need to again. You can also use these archived install files to reinstall it on a new computer without having to download (I have done this to transfer my Stardock games to new PCs without downloading the install files again).

Frankly Stardock is still standing head and shoulders above any other reasonable sized game developers in terms of how they treat their customers.

Long may it continue![/quote]

Just making sure I understand this correctly: the "activation" is simply sending a serial key to Stardock to download the game, you don't need to actually activate the game once you have downloaded it? If this is the case, I'm re-heartened towards Stardock . Like I explained above, authorizing a customer when they use a service makes perfect sense and isn't DRM at all.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4731.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/4731.page GMT
Stardock Central is used, but it is only used for downloading patches / multiplayer maps / mods / replay data. Essentially it's like a user-name for logging in to participate in community stuff.

In fact, you can install and play RIGHT out of the box, as it were, nothing's stopping you from playing the game. however paatch updates and mods / community data is what requires you to login via Stardock Central.

That I think is the big difference, and one I'd happily support, no cripple-ware to force me into submission, and no DRM so I don't have to go pleading to them to give me activations if I need to upgrade my machine.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5175.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5175.page GMT
Please take note Hothead. I love Episode One, but I hate your authentication system. I'll be more inclined to recommend it to friends to purchase if this was removed or replaced.

I am extremely against piracy of games, but hate DRM and we-assume-you-stole-this systems even more. When I buy a book I don't have to call the publisher to get permission to read it, games should [b]never[/b] have such systems.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5187.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5187.page GMT
Unless there is a book-cloning device of which I am not aware that allows its customers to make duplicates of books and send them through a pneuma-tube system, that is a flawed analogy. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5188.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5188.page GMT Photocopiers and scanners.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5189.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5189.page GMT Photocopiers and scanners.[/quote]

Touché. ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5190.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5190.page GMT
With the recent invention of printers, these can then be brought back into the realm of the corporeal.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5200.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5200.page GMT
With the recent invention of printers, these can then be brought back into the realm of the corporeal.[/quote]

Did I not say "Touché?" ]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5202.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5202.page GMT Photocopiers and scanners.[/quote]
I still don't think that's a valid analogy. Photocopying a typical novel of, say, 300 pages takes hours. If you have it in digital form, just printing it takes a lot of time as well, and at least $10 in paper, ink and printing supplies. Then you have a bunch of unbound papers that are too many to staple. While I've happily payed more for printed editions of public domain texts, just because it's nice to have a decent hard copy, I wouldn't think of paying for a stack of paper.

So the analogy doesn't apply, because:
[list]unlike copied software, home-printed books are not nearly as nice as the commercially sold alternative.[/list]
[list]unlike copied software, which is basically free (assuming you have an internet connection anyway, which seems fair, especially if we're talking about games that are distributed over the internet) , the cost of home-printed books is in the same order of magnitude as the price of the legitimate product.[/list]
[list]unlike copied software, printing your own books takes a lot more effort than just buying it.[/list]

So I don't think book publishers are in real danger of missing out on sales because of illegal copies of books.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5206.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5206.page GMT
I'm also not sure why you mention the cost of time of printing, as I've never heard of anyone going to that effort. We have laptops, PDAs, phones, Amazon Kindles, and our flatscreen monitors which make perfectly capable reading devices. This is effectively no cost to those acquiring it, and considerably faster and easier to acquire than a video game.

If you want to debate the popularity of ebooks, that is fine; but [url=http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:General_FAQ#G.1._What_is_Project_Gutenberg.3F]Project Gutenberg[/url] says perhaps you are just unfamiliar with this and underestimating its popularity.]]> http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5245.page http://forum.playgreenhouse.com/jforum/posts/preList/302/5245.page GMT